[Ffmpeg-devel-irc] ffmpeg-devel.log.20160518

[burek]

[00:53:50 CEST] <cone-387> ffmpeg 03Yong Lei 07master:7bacf7453665: avformat/avio: fix memory leak in url_find_protocol
[01:20:51 CEST] <cone-387> ffmpeg 03Michael Niedermayer 07master:936751b6527c: avformat/avio: Fix null pointer dereference in case of memleak
[11:57:54 CEST] <ubitux> what's the quality vbr range for aac with the cli?
[11:59:20 CEST] <ubitux> http://sprunge.us/CaVC kinda confusing
[12:04:32 CEST] <ubitux> Effective range for -q:a is around 0.1-2. ok
[12:40:39 CEST] <cone-684> ffmpeg 03Paul B Mahol 07master:eef2f64294a6: avcodec/iff: scala anim32 & anim16 decompression
[12:47:40 CEST] <cone-684> ffmpeg 03Paul B Mahol 07master:810a8ba5b673: avcodec/iff: add forgotten checks for end of input buffer
[14:03:37 CEST] <BtbN> great, wiki spam again.
[14:59:13 CEST] <BBB> michaelni: can you give me edit rights to BadContent?
[15:01:03 CEST] <BBB> (I deleted the above pages)
[15:06:35 CEST] <BBB> michaelni: edit rights to BadIP would be useful too
[15:37:32 CEST] <Daemon404> http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2016-May/194375.html
[15:37:48 CEST] <Daemon404> why the heck is carl exempt from even basic things like "dont be an ass"
[15:37:55 CEST] <JEEB> wat
[15:37:59 CEST] <Daemon404> i really love ad hominem attacks
[15:38:26 CEST] <Daemon404> every time this happens, the usual people are suspiciously silent on the matter.
[15:38:30 CEST] <Daemon404> every. time.
[15:38:33 CEST] <durandal_170> lol, he is really .......
[15:46:35 CEST] <wm4> trolled back because not enough flames
[15:46:49 CEST] <wm4> michaelni: btw. how come I'm only voiced again, when I was op for some time?
[15:48:00 CEST] <wm4> ah I was too late
[15:48:37 CEST] <wm4> can't we vote to ban Carl from the mailing list?
[15:53:17 CEST] <durandal_1707> wm4: something resets powers
[16:01:59 CEST] <BBB> :(
[16:02:31 CEST] <kierank> don't worry the carl defenders are here!!!
[16:02:46 CEST] <Compn> losing your irc reg identity will break the power 
[16:02:58 CEST] <Compn> log into nickserv once per month
[16:03:27 CEST] <wm4> people like Compn who have not the slightest clue about technical issues, but will defend whatever carl/michaelni say?
[16:03:45 CEST] <kierank> yes or people who want free speech like ubitux 
[16:03:56 CEST] <kierank> irrespective of the toxic environment it creates
[16:03:59 CEST] <kierank> same with michaelni 
[16:04:01 CEST] <wm4> hey ubitux isn't in this category
[16:04:13 CEST] <kierank> wm4: please see discussion two months ago
[16:04:40 CEST] <wm4> in any case, it's true, we're unable to do anything about the bad direction things tend to be taking
[16:06:45 CEST] <Compn> when you wall out the free speech you will find yourself in an echo chamber
[16:06:59 CEST] <Compn> or maybe not
[16:07:11 CEST] <ubitux> kierank: my position is that i'm free to care about anything i want to, just like you are, but thx for not blaming me for the misbehaviour of Carl
[16:07:49 CEST] <durandal_1707> please leave this to me...
[16:08:47 CEST] <Compn> having to choose one developer over another isnt an "ass" move?
[16:08:48 CEST] <BBB> so now were all fighting with each other
[16:08:50 CEST] <BBB> wonderful ...
[16:09:04 CEST] <Compn> ack spam
[16:09:12 CEST] <BBB> wow you guys delete quicker than me
[16:09:32 CEST] <Compn> if i had to pick one developer over another who rage quits....
[16:09:35 CEST] <BBB> and& its gone
[16:09:49 CEST] <BBB> michaelni: please give me BadContent/BadIP editing power on wiki pretty please?
[16:10:03 CEST] <BBB> I feel like a crippled moderator on the wiki, I can delete but I cant block :-p
[16:10:29 CEST] <BBB> so now back to the actual topic of conversation
[16:11:24 CEST] <BBB> Compn: can you talk to cehoyos and see if he can mellow his tone? those last few emails were totally unnecessary
[16:11:35 CEST] <michaelni> BBB, fixed you should be able to edit read only pages now
[16:12:19 CEST] <Compn> i'd rather try to instruct people to ignore tone , but i can ask
[16:12:41 CEST] <wm4> http://git.videolan.org is down?
[16:12:57 CEST] <funman> yes
[16:13:20 CEST] <BBB> and its gone
[16:13:24 CEST] <BBB> should be blocked from now on
[16:13:27 CEST] <BBB> I just missed that one
[16:14:13 CEST] <Compn> sent
[16:14:28 CEST] <Compn> er BBB : sent mail to carl
[16:14:29 CEST] <BBB> Compn: well, look, I dont think its ok that cehoyos can use any tone he wants and others should just ignore it& we should all nudge a little
[16:14:32 CEST] <BBB> ty
[16:14:54 CEST] <Compn> yeah well i'm not a safe spaces kind of guy , you are barking up the wrong tree
[16:15:36 CEST] <BBB> didnt bloomberg give a wonderful anti-safe-spaces speec at a commencement ceremony a week or so ago?
[16:15:46 CEST] <BBB> IIRC
[16:15:54 CEST] <Compn> i dont listen to that soda pop policeman 
[16:15:55 CEST] <Compn> ehe
[16:15:58 CEST] <BBB> lol
[16:16:08 CEST] <BBB> brb
[16:17:39 CEST] <Compn> [09:38] <Daemon404> every time this happens, the usual people are suspiciously silent on the matter.
[16:18:05 CEST] <Compn> also , this is a thread that was posted in the last hour. i dont think everyone is even awake at the same time, let alone reading mailing list flame wars
[16:18:31 CEST] <Compn> BBB : arent you going to aks daemon about his "tone" about persecuting the "silent" "usual people" ? nahhh 
[16:18:34 CEST] <durandal_1707> well it happens multiple times in past
[16:21:18 CEST] <Compn> i think i'm getting too old for this shit.
[16:21:28 CEST] <durandal_1707> and free speech are not attacks
[16:23:38 CEST] <durandal_1707> and Carl was clearly attacking
[16:25:55 CEST] <Compn> Derek Buitenhuis <derek.buitenhuis <at> gmail.com> writes:
[16:25:55 CEST] <Compn> > I would agree, but for some reason Carl feels he is exempt
[16:25:55 CEST] <Compn> > from the FFmpeg developer rules. 
[16:25:59 CEST] <BBB> Compn: Ill talk with derek
[16:26:00 CEST] <Compn> was that an attack too ? 
[16:26:15 CEST] <Compn> ( i am curious, i cant tell the diff between a discussion and an attack right now )
[16:26:31 CEST] <BBB> its probably categorized as a snide remark
[16:26:37 CEST] <BBB> I think thats the correct spelling
[16:26:44 CEST] <Compn> looks correct
[16:26:54 CEST] <Compn> spelling wise
[16:27:39 CEST] <Compn> i have to go outside now and enjoy the day. sorry , bbl
[16:27:55 CEST] <Compn> durandal_1707 : was that an attack ? 
[16:28:04 CEST] <Compn> what derek said
[16:28:08 CEST] <Compn> that i pasted.
[16:28:35 CEST] <wm4> in itself, it wasn't much "attacking", but it was the typical asshole pattern Carl is _always_ showing
[16:29:02 CEST] <wm4> sometimes I think Carl would rather destroy the project than risking reunification with Libav
[16:29:14 CEST] <Compn> my eyes have rolled out of my head
[16:29:39 CEST] <Compn> you should have been at the meeting wm4 :)
[16:30:10 CEST] <durandal_1707> to talk with him?
[16:30:32 CEST] <Compn> i mean the libav ffmpeg reunification talk meeting at vdd hosted by j-b_
[16:30:40 CEST] <Compn> where carl was in attendance
[16:32:11 CEST] <atomnuker> carl and luca were the only people getting triggered, if it wasn't for them maybe something would have come out of it
[16:33:34 CEST] <BBB> atomnuker is right
[16:34:20 CEST] <wm4> sigh
[16:36:27 CEST] <BBB> Compn: btw, not listening to soda pop policemen is as safe spaces as anything - listen to him, he might have something useful to say
[16:36:44 CEST] <BBB> Compn: although I admit hes probably too much a metropolitan elitist for most of the country
[16:37:11 CEST] <Compn> ehe
[16:37:15 CEST] <Compn> maybe i'll give a listen later
[16:37:43 CEST] <Compn> i havent really been following safe spaces thing . saw southpark episode on it , thats about it
[16:38:08 CEST] <BBB> oh I should go look at that
[16:38:12 CEST] <BBB> thanks for the pointer :D
[16:41:39 CEST] <BBB> s19e05
[16:43:32 CEST] <atomnuker> durandal_1707: you should probably send another email to the ML with the meeting time and channel
[16:46:07 CEST] <durandal_1707> I'm out in another city...
[16:46:44 CEST] <durandal_1707> With old phone, too lazy to buy new one
[16:49:35 CEST] <durandal_1707> what would be best date and hour?
[16:50:16 CEST] <atomnuker> some not-too-distant saturday at a time when both the US and the EU are awake
[17:23:47 CEST] <michaelni> what happened with git.videolan.org ? or rather when will it be back ?
[17:24:59 CEST] <JEEB> apparently they're trying to find someone to kick the box
[17:28:43 CEST] <jamrial> so, when are we kicking carl?
[17:29:59 CEST] <atomnuker> meeting
[17:33:22 CEST] Action: pfelt is wondering if he needs to find a new shaper pitchfork, and perhaps a torch of some kind....
[17:34:02 CEST] <wm4> torches are handed out right besides the blank patch template stand
[17:34:09 CEST] <pfelt> and..  greatest of mornings to everyone!
[17:34:43 CEST] <pfelt> being new here, i'm just grateful that you guys have been patient with me
[17:37:38 CEST] <BBB> pfelt: most important thing to learn is to be a little bit resistant to asshole comments from some people
[17:37:54 CEST] <BBB> pfelt: they usually dont mean bad, they just dont know to express themselves decently
[17:38:08 CEST] <BBB> sometimes they mean bad and then we have to correct that, but then the damage is already done :(
[17:39:53 CEST] <nevcairiel> i dont get that argument, some people are so obviously aggressive and confronting that I don't buy the "they dont know any better because muh english"
[17:41:22 CEST] <BBB> Im just assuming most people have a good inner spirit
[17:41:31 CEST] <BBB> you dont have to agree with me on that
[17:42:24 CEST] <nevcairiel> after over a decade on the internet, i'm not sure I would agree, it seems like in real life everyone pretends, and in anonymity of the web, the true self comes out
[17:43:04 CEST] <nevcairiel> because you cant get punched in the face
[17:43:12 CEST] <jamrial> anonymity isn't a factor here, really
[17:43:27 CEST] <BBB> most people here have met in person, and most are pretty reasonable in person
[17:44:17 CEST] <nevcairiel> jamrial: just knowing someones name doesnt really change that, imho
[17:45:47 CEST] <atomnuker> elvis presley and foo86 are some true heroes
[17:46:02 CEST] <jamrial> nevcairiel: maybe. doesn't change the fact your name is in the open and linked to toxic behavior, in a field where you can work and get hired without ever meeting in person
[17:47:44 CEST] <BBB> crap crap crap if I accidently type rm -f file ** ./run_script instead of rm -f file && ./run_script in my source directory
[17:47:56 CEST] <pfelt> so, delicate question.   i've got two patches on the list, what's the best way to get convo going on them?
[17:47:56 CEST] <BBB> how do people live without revision control systems?
[17:50:03 CEST] <iive> nevcairiel: it's not only pretending, instinct and social conditioning do suppress aggressiveness when seeing somebody in person.
[17:53:40 CEST] <jamrial> in any case, the meeting and vote need to happen and soon. the way this issue has been handled all this time was too lax
[18:11:50 CEST] <michaelni> Timothy_Gu, http://fatebeta.ffmpeg.org/ is "502 Bad Gateway" after reboot
[18:51:46 CEST] <cone-981> ffmpeg 03Michael Niedermayer 07master:42ee137a0a7d: avcodec/m101: Check BPS value
[18:55:33 CEST] <durandal_1707> pfelt: patches about what?
[19:44:40 CEST] <pfelt> durandal_1707: sorry.  got pulled away for a few meetings.  one is a rework of my previously rejected (for good reason) patch to src_movie.c allowing for input swapping.  the other is a patch to decklink input allowing for autodetecting the input mode
[19:58:55 CEST] <BBB> jamrial: I think were waiting for someone to organize it& I dont know who proposed it originally, but if nobody organizes it, it wont happen
[20:00:20 CEST] <jamrial> BBB: durandal_1707 did
[20:02:08 CEST] <BBB> I dont see his email
[20:02:40 CEST] <BBB> oh he originally proposed it
[20:02:45 CEST] <BBB> durandal_1707: will you organize the meeting?
[20:03:49 CEST] <Compn> michael just sent a mail asking devs not to vote on banning other devs
[20:04:01 CEST] <Compn> not that he is project leader or anything
[20:04:23 CEST] <Compn> but i agree with him that it would turn into a very small island of devs if we turned down this route
[20:04:50 CEST] <Compn> jsut look at mplayer, banned uau from the lists...
[20:05:00 CEST] <Compn> all downhill from there :P
[20:05:13 CEST] <iive> this kind of discourse is exactly what lead to the fork
[20:05:17 CEST] <Compn> sure
[20:05:36 CEST] <Compn> not that forking is bad , iive, i'm sure you agree
[20:05:37 CEST] <iive> do we really want a third project?
[20:05:49 CEST] <jamrial> Compn: i don't agree. we simply can't tolerate this kind of behavior
[20:06:17 CEST] <iive> jamrial: really?
[20:07:06 CEST] <jamrial> iive: really
[20:07:40 CEST] <iive> Compn: forking on its own is not bad, but hostility and losing developers is bad.
[20:09:00 CEST] <Compn> i guess derek already left
[20:09:06 CEST] <Compn> BBB : so nevermind about asking derek about tone
[20:09:14 CEST] <Compn> his email said he unsubscribed already
[20:10:16 CEST] <iive> jamrial: you do understand that you want to kick a quite active developer, for sending mail to the maillist?
[20:10:26 CEST] <BBB> but derek leaving is not a good reason to not do anything about the behaviour that caused him to leave
[20:10:40 CEST] <Compn> iive : i think jamrial understands that  yes
[20:11:17 CEST] <Compn> BBB : i'm specifically just talking about my earlier request to you to talk to derek about tone
[20:11:28 CEST] <BBB> oh I see
[20:11:30 CEST] <Compn> you are free to continue your other avenues of course :P
[20:11:31 CEST] <jamrial> iive: i want to kick carl for his constant hostility and general behavior towards other developers
[20:12:10 CEST] <fritsch> wm4: our vaapi bug from last time - i think it was a driver bug, see: ttps://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94845
[20:12:12 CEST] <jamrial> and for not being able to follow simple rules even after being constantly asked to
[20:12:14 CEST] <Compn> i didnt realize he had quit already. i must have misread the email...
[20:12:25 CEST] <wm4> at this point I wish j-b would fork ffmpeg
[20:12:43 CEST] <BBB> I have a general dislike for the idea of yet another fork
[20:12:48 CEST] <BBB> but that may just be me
[20:12:55 CEST] <wm4> fritsch: was that responsible for the blur??
[20:13:01 CEST] <jamrial> wm4: getting rid of carl is a good way to freshen up ffmpeg's environment
[20:13:07 CEST] <jamrial> or at least a start
[20:13:14 CEST] <Compn> a j-b fork was one of my ideas back when i thought libav/ffmpeg could combine
[20:13:24 CEST] <Compn> but i was wrong about them combining back
[20:13:43 CEST] <wm4> I just wish to stop having to deal with 2 hostile projects
[20:13:44 CEST] <Compn> so i am hereby abandoning my idea for j-b to fork again :P
[20:13:50 CEST] <Compn> so only deal with one of them, wm4 :)
[20:13:58 CEST] <wm4> if it means I only have to send patches to libjb, fine
[20:14:15 CEST] <Compn> also the projects arent hostile to each other anymore
[20:14:22 CEST] <Compn> so i'm not sure where you are getting that outlook from
[20:14:25 CEST] <iive> jamrial: maybe he is been hostile, because he is under constant attack of people who accuse him of hostility?
[20:15:51 CEST] <jamrial> iive: did you notice how this issue started? carl replying with a passive agressive unrelated comment to a legit and polite request to follow a basic rule
[20:16:11 CEST] <BBB> iive: I dont think he started, she started! is very conductive to a solution
[20:16:42 CEST] <jamrial> so no, i don't believe it's "self defense" or retaliation in any way
[20:16:47 CEST] <iive> jamrial: to be honest, the request wasn't polite...
[20:16:56 CEST] <Compn> request was off topic in that thread 
[20:17:27 CEST] <iive> jamrial: i actually opened the attachment to see if there is patch in there, because I assumed that it might have been empty or something.
[20:17:47 CEST] <jamrial> iive: so saying "please send a patch the proper way" is not polite?
[20:18:10 CEST] <jamrial> iive: he did not send a patch made with git. he sent a diff output
[20:18:14 CEST] <iive> jamrial: saying "what you send is not patch" is quite rude.
[20:19:51 CEST] <jamrial> iive: i find it ironic you're using this as argument in favor of carl, the guy that makes every single person opening a ticket to strictly follow the rules stated in the bug report page, or face seeing their tickets closed as invalid
[20:19:52 CEST] <iive> anyway, this is not how it started...
[20:20:13 CEST] <wm4> jamrial: or ignored, when you're on his shitlist
[20:20:15 CEST] <iive> there seems to be older feud, and this instance is just the most recent iteration of it.
[20:20:41 CEST] <wm4> iive: he has been repeatedly asked to send git format-patches, which he has ignored
[20:20:44 CEST] <jamrial> he was asked to send a patch the proper way. he replied in an hostile way, unprovoked
[20:20:57 CEST] <BBB> more generally, carl has been asked to be kinder to others
[20:20:59 CEST] <wm4> iive: and yes, in the past too
[20:21:10 CEST] <BBB> his response to derek was utterly stupid
[20:21:16 CEST] <iive> any idea why he sends diff like these?
[20:21:37 CEST] <BBB> I dont think we should have to care, iive
[20:21:49 CEST] <BBB> Im supposed to send patches that pass fate and compile
[20:22:00 CEST] <BBB> if I dont, that gets pointed out, and I send a new patch
[20:22:16 CEST] <BBB> he has to send patches that are in the style of git send-email, just like the rest of us
[20:22:29 CEST] <BBB> if he doesnt, that gets pointed out and he should fix it. I dont think anyone cares how he fixes it
[20:22:44 CEST] <BBB> were all pretty solid hardcore programmers here, we can fix trivial stuff like this
[20:22:52 CEST] <BBB> right?
[20:23:27 CEST] <Compn> you dont think taking carl's feelings on git format patch should be taken into account, BBB ?
[20:23:57 CEST] <fritsch> i sometimes have the feeling to send 1000 line patches directly via irc ...
[20:24:05 CEST] <jamrial> Compn: no?
[20:24:08 CEST] <BBB> Compn: no
[20:24:12 CEST] <nevcairiel> how is that a feeling, he is just lazy
[20:24:21 CEST] <nevcairiel> everyone else bothers to do it the right way
[20:24:21 CEST] <BBB> Compn: if this was something extremely hard, sure; but this is trivial at best, come on
[20:24:35 CEST] <BBB> I really dont know how else to say it: come on
[20:24:51 CEST] <Compn> so if its trivial to implement why is it not trivial to ignore?
[20:25:08 CEST] <BBB> for the same reason code style has to be according to consensus
[20:25:13 CEST] <BBB> it makes everyones life easier
[20:25:29 CEST] <BBB> it doesnt matter what the style is; but we chose a style, and now everyone has to adhere to it
[20:25:33 CEST] <BBB> same for git send-email
[20:25:34 CEST] <Compn> so we can ignore carls easier feelings to make everyone elses easier feelings?
[20:25:42 CEST] <Compn> just logical question
[20:25:42 CEST] <BBB> in this case, yes
[20:25:49 CEST] <ubitux> "feelings"
[20:25:51 CEST] <BBB> its a small price to pay for everyone to have an easier time
[20:25:56 CEST] <ubitux> we're talking about a technical workflow
[20:26:07 CEST] <Plorkyeran> yes, wtf do feelings have to do with anything
[20:26:11 CEST] <BBB> if he cant get over this, then really, I dont know what else to say than this: come on
[20:26:15 CEST] <Plorkyeran> a diff is not functionaly equivalent to a patch
[20:26:28 CEST] <Plorkyeran> the problem with a diff is not that it's an annoying-to-read format or something
[20:26:35 CEST] <Plorkyeran> it's that it contains less information
[20:27:07 CEST] <Compn> should write all this down in reply to that thread
[20:27:12 CEST] <Compn> maybe carl would understand where you are coming from
[20:27:13 CEST] <iive> first, I'd like to point that ffmpeg does not mandate usage of git send-mail. This is actually requirement for kernel list and the patch is inlined into the mail.
[20:27:14 CEST] <ubitux> yes, it's lacking information, harder to handle for testing and it doesn't show the good example for contributors
[20:27:21 CEST] <fritsch> after having read the whole thread - the diff is not the biggest issue in there - the tone and the way of talking is a really big issue
[20:27:24 CEST] <wm4> Compn: he reads the irc log anyway
[20:27:24 CEST] <ubitux> Compn: it's been said several times already
[20:27:48 CEST] <nevcairiel> iive: we're fine with format-patch as well, but plain diffs are just very lazy
[20:27:48 CEST] <iive> last time I checked ffmpeg was still attaching patches. so as wm4 said `git format-patch` is what we are talking here.
[20:27:57 CEST] <jamrial> fritsch: yes, the issue is the person's behavior
[20:28:28 CEST] <jamrial> format-patch is mandated. send-email is prefered and encouraged
[20:28:35 CEST] <ubitux> it's a been surreal that there is a need to be discussing such obvious thing
[20:28:38 CEST] <jamrial> carl uses neither
[20:28:50 CEST] <ubitux> we have a common workflow, we have to stick it as developers, it's common sense
[20:29:00 CEST] <jamrial> it's a simple thing that he can't follow. then he insults people when pointed out
[20:29:02 CEST] <BBB> I also feel that were getting cornered into a detail of the bigger issue
[20:29:18 CEST] <BBB> the patch thing is a minor annoyance; his outlash at a fellow developer is a much bigger issue
[20:29:30 CEST] <BBB> (which, in this case, costs us the developer & :( )
[20:29:38 CEST] <BtbN> isn't it even harder to create non-git patches? You have to keep around two versions of the source and diff them.
[20:30:08 CEST] <nevcairiel> BtbN: no idea how he works
[20:30:13 CEST] <nevcairiel> maybe git diff > file
[20:30:16 CEST] <iive> you can easy create diff, if you haven't committed the patch yet.
[20:30:43 CEST] <BtbN> so... he is using git, but refuses to change the command he uses to create a patch? oO
[20:30:48 CEST] <wm4> it's funny that carl makes such a big fucking deal about following HIS conventions on the issue tracker, but if several developers repeatedly tell carl to change something about the way he sends, he's suddenly considered the bullied one by certain persons
[20:30:59 CEST] Action: wm4 stares a hole into Compn and iive 
[20:31:08 CEST] <jamrial> BtbN: basically
[20:31:36 CEST] <ubitux> wm4: i think every developer here agrees you know
[20:31:50 CEST] <wm4> BtbN: essentially it's just an example of non-compliance and disrespect
[20:32:08 CEST] <BtbN> interesting
[20:33:05 CEST] <fritsch> perhaps he uses git diff <commit> <commit>
[20:33:17 CEST] <wm4> either way he has to push the patch later anyway
[20:33:22 CEST] <fritsch> jep
[20:33:27 CEST] <wm4> so he has to do it anyway, and there's no argument here
[20:33:49 CEST] <fritsch> is that rule somewhere written?
[20:34:02 CEST] <fritsch> like "full ffmpeg output with current master" on trac?
[20:34:03 CEST] <fritsch> :-)
[20:34:32 CEST] <wm4> doesn't matter, we've told him
[20:34:44 CEST] <wm4> it's not like we "attack" him out of the blue
[20:35:01 CEST] <wm4> we also tell new contributors how sending patches is preferred
[20:35:55 CEST] <wm4> http://ffmpeg.org/developer.html#Submitting-patches
[20:35:58 CEST] <wm4> yes it's documented
[20:36:42 CEST] <fritsch> yeah, so someone that sticks to rules, should not have a problem with that
[20:36:46 CEST] <fritsch> so even more wondering
[20:37:10 CEST] <fritsch> but again, i don't think the patch is the issue - looks more like some personal fight between the parties involved
[20:37:17 CEST] <fritsch> perhaps they can talk about it in person
[20:37:18 CEST] <iive> wm4: i'm not quite aware how Carl handles the bugtracker, but I think that he is doing the whole heavy lifting in there.
[20:37:21 CEST] <fritsch> and nobody has to leave?
[20:37:32 CEST] <BBB> wm4: he is, indeed
[20:37:41 CEST] <BBB> oops
[20:37:44 CEST] <BBB> iive: he is, indeed
[20:37:46 CEST] <BBB> wm4: ignore that
[20:37:51 CEST] <uau> Compn: i wasn't ever banned from mplayer lists IIRC
[20:39:50 CEST] <iive> however I've seen numerous times when Derek goes into berserk mode for minor things Carl have/not/ done
[20:39:59 CEST] <Compn> i remember some kind of vote. the results of that either you left or was banned :P
[20:40:08 CEST] <iive> even in this case, he jumped into the fray to add more fuel to the flame.
[20:40:15 CEST] <wm4> some of his commits were reverted, right
[20:41:03 CEST] <wm4> iive: carl's behavior is worse, and more importantly, causes more damage to the project
[20:41:39 CEST] <iive> uau was never banned, Diego kept him, even after he left. Actually he may still have commit rights.
[20:42:06 CEST] <iive> wm4: I can say same thing for Derek.
[20:42:19 CEST] <wm4> well I can't
[20:42:27 CEST] <iive> Basically what Derek does now, is the same what Mans did right before the fork.
[20:42:53 CEST] <Compn> uau / iive : http://mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/mplayer-dev-eng/2007-February/049756.html
[20:42:57 CEST] <Compn> no idea what happened :P
[20:44:22 CEST] <Compn> er wait that was the old vote
[20:48:30 CEST] <Compn> other vote was 2010 :P
[20:48:35 CEST] <uau> Compn: there was that vote trying to remove my commit access (and some other attempts of various seriousness), but those didn't pass
[20:48:54 CEST] <iive> they did pass
[20:48:55 CEST] <uau> if my svn account was ever closed, it was long after i had moved to mplayer2 and stopped using it
[20:49:17 CEST] <iive> but KotH refused to remove your access and called Diego, to talk everybody out of.
[20:49:25 CEST] <uau> and AFAIK there's never been any kind of block for any mailing list posting
[20:50:47 CEST] <uau> iive: there was never a proper formal vote, so nothing that could have "passed"; i guess you're referring to some informal count of people who expressed opinions in the thread
[20:51:06 CEST] <Compn> uau : http://mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/mplayer-dev-eng/2010-May/064672.html
[20:51:29 CEST] <Compn> not sure how to make that any more clear?
[20:51:35 CEST] <iive> uau: we are still not using proper ballout box for voting :D
[20:52:29 CEST] <wm4> "The MPlayer Team would like to ask Uoti, that the fork he has been
[20:52:29 CEST] <wm4> working on for quite some time, is labled as such with an clearly
[20:52:29 CEST] <wm4> distinguishable name."
[20:52:31 CEST] <wm4> hahahaha
[20:52:32 CEST] <BBB> lets leave mplayer out of ffmpeg?
[20:52:39 CEST] <BBB> like, entirely
[20:52:39 CEST] <uau> Compn: i guess the mplayer svn account may have been disabled at that point (note that that's at the "long after i had moved to mplayer2 and stopped using it" point i referred to above, as you can see from the "fork he has been
[20:52:40 CEST] <uau> working on for quite some time" part)
[20:52:51 CEST] <Compn> fair enough uau
[20:52:51 CEST] <wm4> that's kind of hilarious, because even long after mplayer2 died, there have been mplayer bug reports actually using mplayer2
[20:53:04 CEST] <Compn> BBB : i was bringing it up as a point what happens when you vote out a dev
[20:53:17 CEST] <BBB> Im not voting to out a dev yet
[20:53:32 CEST] <uau> Compn: well i think i was a more important dev for mplayer than carl is for anything :)
[20:53:56 CEST] <BBB> but Im not happy with carl ATM
[20:53:56 CEST] <wm4> (that's probably true)
[20:54:02 CEST] <BBB> now, fellows, back to ffmpeg?
[20:57:26 CEST] <iive> ok, then I will say it, and you would be free to prove me wrong.
[20:57:49 CEST] <iive> There are people who doesn't like Carl, because of his stance agains LibAV project
[20:58:09 CEST] <Compn> iive : carl said he would work with libav actually. you may have old info
[20:58:13 CEST] <iive> and who think that if Carl is out of ffmpeg, this would help bring both projects together.
[20:59:15 CEST] <jamrial> iive: very unlikely
[20:59:33 CEST] <iive> Compn: maybe they haven't heard that, or don't believe it. Also, maybe libav doesn't want to work with carl.
[20:59:39 CEST] <jamrial> people thought michael stepping down as leader would achieve the same, and it didn't happen
[20:59:46 CEST] <Compn> iive : this was face to face at vdd meeting
[20:59:49 CEST] <Compn> so they heard it
[21:00:34 CEST] <JEEB> there's a difference between having a stance in relation to libav, and proactively poking at people merging changes in from libav (which has been the implicit or explicit - I don't remember if there was any explicit definition by michaelni or anyone else - way things have gone in here since the fork)
[21:00:40 CEST] <iive> the secret meeting?
[21:00:44 CEST] <Compn> yes
[21:00:53 CEST] <Compn> JEEB : i suggested stop merging from libav as well
[21:00:55 CEST] <Compn> a few months ago
[21:00:58 CEST] <iive> that nobody is allowed to speak, to avoid attempts for sabotage?
[21:01:19 CEST] <jamrial> Compn: stopping the merges is a bad idea. stopping to pester and annoy devs merging is a good idea
[21:01:30 CEST] <Compn> yes iive , we are past that, there is no ffmpeg versus libav anymore
[21:02:08 CEST] <jamrial> carl wouldn't stop to pester those handling the merges
[21:02:10 CEST] <JEEB> sure, there seem to be some people against merging. but that doesn't make it any more correct to poke/pester people about them taking the task upon themselves
[21:02:59 CEST] <Compn> you are saying reporting a bug with a merged commit is an annoyance and a pester ?
[21:03:01 CEST] <JEEB> if you want the merges to stop, then please have a discussion/vote/whatever about it. that way there would be an official stance on it. not by how it's been done so far as far as I've seen
[21:03:06 CEST] <JEEB> no, I do not.
[21:03:10 CEST] <wm4> Compn: he complained just today that Derek broke ffmpeg with "every commit"
[21:03:13 CEST] <wm4> he meant the merge commits
[21:03:14 CEST] <JEEB> ^
[21:03:18 CEST] <Compn> yes i realize that
[21:03:31 CEST] <wm4> Compn: so how do you deal with this obvious conflict
[21:03:54 CEST] <wm4> or more like, contradiction
[21:04:50 CEST] <Compn> i dont know the answer
[21:05:15 CEST] <JEEB> as far as I could tell, FATE was run every time merges were done. And TEP2 should have been seen as one of the most tested merges during the last few years
[21:05:16 CEST] <Compn> i asked everyone to ignore carl, and carl to ignore everyone before
[21:05:49 CEST] <JEEB> and of course it is not possible to test *everything* ever poked, so regressions are always possible
[21:06:11 CEST] <nevcairiel> and how is that a good situation if we cant even work other then ignoring some people?
[21:06:13 CEST] <Compn> i dont actually really care that git was broken
[21:06:28 CEST] <Compn> it was fixed eventually
[21:06:40 CEST] <JEEB> yes, which is what matters
[21:06:43 CEST] <Compn> i remember derek and nevcairiel both said merging was a pain
[21:06:54 CEST] <Compn> plus everyone else fixing code to work with merges
[21:07:00 CEST] <Compn> said it was painful
[21:07:12 CEST] <Compn> i'm not doing the work, so i dont really have an opinion
[21:07:17 CEST] <JEEB> it is, but still people chose to pick that task up because they believed it was worth it
[21:07:29 CEST] <Compn> so for me to ask everyone to stop merging would be out of my level. 
[21:07:37 CEST] <iive> but is it really worth it?
[21:08:25 CEST] <jamrial> yes iive. and this we're again straying from the actual subject at hand
[21:08:26 CEST] <JEEB> that is everyone's own opinion as far as I can say, I'm not intelligent enough to be able to calculate some sort of threshold value and the value
[21:08:50 CEST] <Compn> i've sent mail to carl inviting him to irc
[21:09:15 CEST] <JEEB> but yes, this is secondary compared to the people issue
[21:09:29 CEST] <jamrial> Compn: you know that will make things worse, right?
[21:09:48 CEST] <Compn> jamrial : yes i understand you want to ban carl and never listen to him again. i understand your position
[21:10:04 CEST] <iive> one thing you should know about people, is that the real motives remain hidden most of the time.
[21:10:24 CEST] <iive> for example, not sending formatted patch is minor problem
[21:10:35 CEST] <iive> you can call it rule, but ffmpeg doesn't have rules
[21:11:03 CEST] <Compn> ffmpeg likes to argue about semantics thats for sure :D
[21:11:06 CEST] <jamrial> Compn: this whole issue exists because carl reacts badly to criticism about his behavior. do you think he will show up here and be understanding and suddenly drop years of toxic behavior behind?
[21:11:20 CEST] <iive> and not having a rules is good thing, because it is indication that everybody act responsibly.
[21:11:21 CEST] <JEEB> if you link to a git repo and point towards a branch you can easily cherry-pick/merge things in. If you post a format-patch, you can git am it
[21:11:34 CEST] <JEEB> iive: unfortunately I can't see the latter part in this project as a whole
[21:11:40 CEST] <Compn> jamrial : dunno, i've seen carl meet people in person and there were no fights
[21:12:06 CEST] <JEEB> people tend to be less jerks IRL as they are physically next to someone
[21:12:14 CEST] <JEEB> including me, probably
[21:12:22 CEST] <Compn> i'm still a jerk in real life
[21:12:41 CEST] <Compn> same as i am on irc :)
[21:12:47 CEST] <uau> iive: it's not about whether it's a rule or not, but whether it's a good thing to do or not
[21:12:53 CEST] <jamrial> we can see that :)
[21:13:06 CEST] <uau> and carl apparently refuses to do the better thing without even really trying to justify his behavior
[21:13:45 CEST] <iive> well, the point i'm trying to make here is
[21:13:47 CEST] <jamrial> iive: a section called "coding rules" is not about rules?
[21:15:14 CEST] <iive> jamrial: coding rules is 1.3, sending patches is 1.5. And the whole thing is called 1. Developers Guide.
[21:15:14 CEST] <Compn> kind of insulting to hear this  'toxic' namecalling all of the time too
[21:15:21 CEST] <Compn> hes toxic, you're toxic
[21:15:26 CEST] <Compn> blah blah is toxic
[21:15:58 CEST] <iive> what i'm trying to say is, that carl might be at wrong here,
[21:16:32 CEST] <iive> but there is a tendency things to be blown out of proportion.
[21:17:04 CEST] <iive> this is a clear sign of hidden conflict, one that might have been around for much longer and for completely different reasons
[21:17:54 CEST] <iive> the only way to resolve the whole issue, is to resolve the underlying conflicts
[21:17:55 CEST] <jamrial> iive: it's years of build up displeasure about the general behavior of a person, and /far/ from hidden
[21:18:37 CEST] <iive> otherwise something else would ignite it again.
[21:19:21 CEST] <uau> i remember when carl joined the project, and i've always had a negative view of him
[21:19:36 CEST] <uau> hostile attitude, and no particular technical competence
[21:19:51 CEST] <uau> sounds like he hasn't changed much
[21:24:56 CEST] <JEEB> He has picked a non-pleasurable task for himself in this project. that I must say. But that doesn't really make his hostile/viewpoint-ignoring (for the lack of a better way of putting latter one into words) responses any less bad. Or the fact that when an explanation is requested on what exactly the change does, you might not get anything regarding it.
[21:25:56 CEST] <JEEB> usually one's displeasure of/with something builds over time, and I must say this is one of such cases.
[21:27:20 CEST] <Compn> so much drama
[21:28:48 CEST] <iive> yeh...
[21:29:50 CEST] <jamrial> we lost a valuable developer. it's kinda justified things are heated up
[21:30:17 CEST] <iive> jamrial: you want to lose 2?
[21:31:03 CEST] <JEEB> personally I'm not heated up, it's just sad that we still have this "Oh, boys will be boys. You know, right?" kind of attitude towards these things
[21:31:25 CEST] <jamrial> iive: when the presence of the second can (and most likely will) in the long term cost us even more, then of course i do
[21:32:41 CEST] <michaelni> JEEB, i hate that attitude too
[21:32:54 CEST] <jamrial> i simply can not let this pass. someone missing something as basic as being friendly and knowing how to socialize with other people with respect should not be welcome
[21:34:17 CEST] <iive> jamrial: Derek for sure will cause more problems, when he comes back. He will come back.
[21:34:35 CEST] <Compn> derek has left before
[21:34:39 CEST] <Compn> same wiht kierank
[21:34:44 CEST] <jamrial> what problems?
[21:35:03 CEST] <iive> like the current one.
[21:35:08 CEST] <JEEB> !?
[21:35:14 CEST] Action: michaelni hopes everyone will come back, i mean everyone litterally not just derek but even diego and mans
[21:35:18 CEST] <JEEB> he is no saint, and neither am I
[21:35:26 CEST] <jamrial> iive: you're shitting me
[21:35:34 CEST] <iive> you said it yourself, it is a big question, because he left.
[21:35:35 CEST] <JEEB> but unfortunately I fail to see the "problem" You're referring to
[21:36:23 CEST] <iive> JEEB: I'll remind you, next time :D
[21:36:57 CEST] <JEEB> sorry, I fail to see the humour in that statement
[21:39:07 CEST] <iive> JEEB: if there is no problem, what are we talking about and why are there calls for voting a developer out of the project?
[21:39:36 CEST] <jamrial> iive: you have for the past four hours tried to put carl as the victim and others as the aggressors, all while derailing the discussion and trying to link everything some hidden personal agenda from some devs
[21:39:39 CEST] <jamrial> are you having a kick out of it?
[21:40:12 CEST] <iive> jamrial: i'm not familiar with that phrase
[21:40:19 CEST] <Compn> iive : better knock off any funny comments , people are upset about humor atm
[21:40:45 CEST] <Compn> JEEB : iive is saying derek may want to vote another dev out later on
[21:40:56 CEST] <Compn> if he comes back
[21:41:29 CEST] <jamrial> derek didn't request this vote, in case you didn't realize
[21:41:30 CEST] <JEEB> unfortunately that might be something someone might want to propose. be it derek or otherwise
[21:41:50 CEST] <JEEB> I don't see the reason to bring this up at this point
[21:42:07 CEST] <iive> jamrial: the whole point of this vote is to kick Carl, so Derek would come back.
[21:42:14 CEST] <JEEB> no
[21:42:23 CEST] <jamrial> who said that?
[21:42:33 CEST] <iive> isn't it obvious?
[21:43:04 CEST] <iive> I asked you, do you really want to lose a second developer.
[21:43:06 CEST] <uau> btw i notice that nobody has said much about how much benefit the project would get out of carl if he's not kicked out
[21:43:06 CEST] <Compn> sorry, i misread then.
[21:43:30 CEST] <jamrial> iive: and i replied to that
[21:43:44 CEST] <jamrial> he costs us one, and he will costs us more in the long run
[21:43:44 CEST] <JEEB> I mean, if Carl improves or is removed/leaves by himself Derek might be more likely to enter back into this community. But at this point I really don't know or care about whether or not that happens.
[21:43:57 CEST] <uau> isn't that quite relevant as long as he's doing some harmful stuff but not necessarily anything catastrophically bad (as seems to be the case)?
[21:44:08 CEST] <iive> jamrial: the thing is... losing somebody else is hypothetical, while carl would be gone for sure.
[21:44:29 CEST] <uau> he's working on the bug tracker issues mostly?
[21:44:54 CEST] <JEEB> he does also do fixes and/or hacks to either properly or seemingly fix issues that people have on the issue tracker
[21:45:00 CEST] <nevcairiel> iive: he already cost us one, and if others say they might quit if he doesnt lay off, you would call them the problem, so what answer do you really expect? =p
[21:45:24 CEST] <iive> nevcairiel: are you one of these?
[21:45:40 CEST] <iive> nevcairiel: are you ready to leave the project, if the vote keeps carl in the project?
[21:45:49 CEST] <jamrial> iive: yes, that is the whole point. getting rid of someone that's slowly bringing the project down
[21:46:02 CEST] <nevcairiel> also you dont answer any questions but try to stir up more controversy
[21:46:13 CEST] <jamrial> ^
[21:46:42 CEST] <jamrial> you're pretty much a troll at this point
[21:47:57 CEST] <iive> jamrial: calling somebody troll is an easy way to ignore opinion you don't like
[21:49:00 CEST] <michaelni> iive do you want to fix some bugs ? ill rerun coverity, it probably will find some new issues
[21:50:30 CEST] <iive> i don't know. I find ffmpeg community quite hostile.
[21:51:04 CEST] <JEEB> with not much enjoyment I happen to agree with that assessment
[22:00:45 CEST] <michaelni> iive, yes it is hostile, and we (the whole community) should change this
[22:18:44 CEST] <cone-981> ffmpeg 03Kyle Swanson 07master:c0c378009b4b: avfilter: add loudnorm
[22:29:12 CEST] <durandal_1707> BBB: Yes, have list of topics?
[22:29:30 CEST] <BBB> I dont, I wasnt asking for a meeting
[23:18:16 CEST] <Illya> jamrial: "he did not send a patch made with git. he sent a diff output" what's the difference? (not picking a fight, I genuinely don't know)
[23:18:45 CEST] <JEEB> no commit message, it can't be git am'd
[23:19:25 CEST] <Illya> ah right, I guess it'd make sense why a git patch is better then
[23:25:34 CEST] <rcombs> format-patch -> am; diff|show -> apply
[23:26:15 CEST] <JEEB> yup
[23:27:02 CEST] <JEEB> anyways, I don't really care as long as it's easily applicable. It's just an extra step when you already have to grab stuff from the ML and *then* you have to come up with a commit message + set the correct author
[23:27:13 CEST] <Illya> Oh. am is different to apply. This is why I've had to keep manually writing out commit messages when testing commits, and changing the author >.<
[23:29:20 CEST] <wm4> JEEB: inline patches AFAIK also help improve workflow with certain mail clients (which is why send-email was invented), but I don't use them so no clue
[23:30:02 CEST] <JEEB> yes, and I must say that I'd rather not take patches from the ML if I can get a link to a branch in a repo
[23:30:54 CEST] <Illya> thunderbird doesn't like patches on the ML, I have to manually copy them to a file, fix whitespace, apply, and then fix where I didn't properly fix the whitespace. I've given up testing patches
[23:31:12 CEST] <Illya> fix the rejects where*
[23:32:42 CEST] <wm4> Illya: can't you save the raw mail?
[23:32:49 CEST] <wm4> git am eats that
[23:33:00 CEST] <JEEB> even with base64?
[23:33:42 CEST] <JEEB> but yeah, I was just looking into the raw message view @ gmail myself
[23:33:50 CEST] <JEEB> thunderbird should be able to handle that, too
[23:34:15 CEST] <jkqxz> Thunderbird works fine in my experience - save gives you a raw file which git am works on.
[23:34:23 CEST] <JEEB> ^this
[23:36:28 CEST] <Illya> oh. I didn't think of that. That's a good idea, thanks!
[00:00:00 CEST] --- Thu May 19 2016